Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Discussions on, tests, methods, myths, correlating the results to meaningful information.

Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Postby Paulus » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:14 pm

Hey Guys
You may have arrived here from the Line Testing Page ... here is why.
This is a work in progress, and never stops, so visit as it will change and be added to. Updated 04,01,2016
Paulus
You cannot test a braids breaking strain yourself, your results will be low by upto 50%, but you may be able to compare one to the other.
The method by which you hold the line, will NOT be correct, no matter how you hold it and no matter where it fails.


This post i am putting up is mainly to answer some questions that have been raised on some fishing sites.
When I am testing the abs the braid I need to be able to look at it and think, this type and size should go Xlb, but this only comes with time.
Braids come as a lot of differing beasts, Spectra & Dyneema both similar but different, (Dyneema is manufactured in a many countries, a lot of it is not Dyneema, with this comes a lot of differing breaking strains in it's quallity), then you also have Dacron, it is twice as thick for its bs.
The braided lines can be, silicon or Teflon coated / coloured with coatings / heat treated and pre stressed, then they can be hollow core lines.
Suggested test method is on bollard with jaws, some use direct loop pulls these maybe outside the test protocol and are not accurate.
The way the line is held is more than critical to the bs test results, achieving that method (varies with the braid to be tested) only comes with experience and a lot of R&D.
After the latest round of bs tests and comparing them to other testing bodies, my braid bs tests with the way the line is held would have to be the best ever carried out, and world's best practice and I do not say that lightly.
Keep in mind that temperature comes into play in the result.
Near all Spectra braids break above stated breaking strains.

Some are using this knotenlos wire as a knotless joining method,,,, this does not work, do not use it for testing
http://www.paulusjustfishing.com/4knotr ... #Knotenlos.

Image

Do not use these for testing braid, they do NOT work. Results are 30% low.

Image

Do not use these for testing braid, they do NOT work.

Image

As much as the so called experts seem to think the above is the best holding method they do not work. Results can be 15% and more down.

Image

Bollards work on plastic lines, like mono's etc, but NOT on braids, do not use them. Results can be 30% low.

The results I achieve are from standard test procedure using a specialized holding method (developed by me) in conjunction with bollards to hold the line, and a tensile testing machine that delivers a steady pull rate, a digital transducer at a max of 135lb and another at 250lb, both have a peak hold facility.

I have tried various sized bollards in the past, 22mm, 38mm, 50mm and larger 60mm. These were aluminum, i have also tried pvc bollards, but being softer than the line they lasted little time and caused premature abs failures, these days bollards are made from stainless steel.
The problem with aluminum bollards is the surface finish, polished works well but when it becomes dull the braid can and will cut in leaving gouges, this does affect the test result, so they needed polishing on a regular basis, hence they are no longer used.
The use of paper or tape between the braid and the bollard, it may soften the impact on the braid, although it will not help with holding the braid on the bollard, putting more strain on the holding mechanism.
With mono lines a pull of 65lb on the line, with just three wraps around a 50mm bollard, all that is left to hold the tag end is 15.4lb, with 4 wraps it's 9.9 lb and 5 wraps it's 6.1 lb, that would differ to the extreme with braid and change with various braid brands. This method is just within the knotting capabilities of the braid.
Keeping in mind that the more turns on the bollard the more line that needs to be taken up to tension it, so thats more friction more heat and the opportunity for the line to fail on the bollard. The braids weaves natural path also becomes distorted on the bollards, so will not work to give an abs, hence I had to rethink this method in the development of the new holding system.
Pulling speed is also a factor, to fast an uptake, will see excessive loads and higher readings. Hence using bollards only as a method will not give a true abs.

The latest test comparisons (from other testers) show that the holding method is so critical, that this new unique method to hold the braid is superior to all others.

This is a note from a line manufacturer.

The essentials of line testing breaking strength are:
The use of two eccentrics eliminates many of errors encountered, but it is not the only way. This does not work.
No knots or splices of any kind, during or prior to tests.
No significant acceleration during tests to create G-forces and thus spurious results.
No cutting surfaces however mild in measurement device.
No twisted line.
No glue or prior exposure to damaging chemicals, or excessive heat.
New, un-used line free of obvious flaws and certainly of known origin and label identification, preferably from primary source on label.
Certifiable instruments used in measurements if high accuracy is essential.
For marketing purposes expect that actual breaking strength will exceed label. Maybe for some but not all.
I think that you will agree that these are reasonable and obvious constraints which will lead to consistent results from all qualified, un-biased testers. Surprisingly, few if any, ever report lower breaking strain.

A few comments.This is all well and good, but I know that the above is only a supplier and not a manufacturer, and that they have their braid made for them, I would think that they do not own a testing machine and rely solely on the manufacturer for all information relating to the lines capabilities.

As far as line coming from a primary source goes, this may mean a line not to old, but in fact this is not what you put on your reel, it may well be 3rd hand and years old, poor storage and low volume sales would be a problem.

Although a primary source line would show it's original strength.
"few if any, ever report lower breaking strains" this can be taken in two ways i guess, maybe it does not often break below stated. Then it could be some testers not reporting lower than listed breaking strains, how else do you get a manufacturer make corrections, although reporting lower than listed breaking strains most certainly causes a few problems in some corners, as I have found. But then to find that the manufacturer had problems at one stage, strange that was when i did the particular tests.

High readings.
With some of my higher figures listed, keep in mind there is no such thing as high figures this means the braid has been tested to its ABS with the best test method / combination that suits the particular braid, and that it was a great sample for testing to start with.

Stray High readings.
These are readings that are not readily reproducible, and you do see them from time to time, unless they are readily reproducible, are logged and noted but not added to the mix.

How I hold the line
I hold the line without mechanical means, jaws, clamps, without knots, twists or twirls of any type.
Lines under test are not directly in contact with the pulling bollards.
The rest I am plain ordinarily not going to tell you, but it does vary with braid type.

Method.
The line has all the twists removed, the length of the unsupported line is 500mm.
The measuring system and test rig are switched on.
The line is put into the machine.
Make sure that the line is loose and set the zero on the meter, switch on the travelator the top section then travels up at a 200mm/min rate, until the line breaks, I log the result. I then set up to do the next test, fresh line that has not been stressed before for each test. and so on. I do 3 to 5 tests log the readings, out of place readings are investigated and are disregarded, I record the average and the best results.

The digital recorder
The digital display has a peak hold, with a separate transducer (load cell), 1 x 145lb and 1 x 250lb.
Separate load cells are used as the backlash when the line breaks does destroy the electronics on the circuit boards in an all in one units.
The readings are taken in lbs and converted to kg as required.

Retained samples
I do keep retained samples, but only if I have enough for another test.

Retesting previously tested lines
I retested the braid using the latest method and found some difference in the retest numbers from the original bollard tests.

Acceleration and Speed
Acceleration and Speed of the test is proportional to the heat build up and ultimate failure so you need a standard test length and a set pull rate, to do comparative tests.
That is why you can see small changes in holding methods and then onto knots.
This is how i found that the Out / In method on hollow core does not work for testing purposes, it may get you (with square cut ends) about 90+ or so percent, with tapered ends 95%. Repeatably working that square cut internal tag will change the shape of it, so will give a differing slightly higher / better result.

Results
These are as tested and not manipulated, I show a mean and a max.
I do not say I did not like that result because it was low, or choosing which section of line i will test, especially during the worn section tests, and it's no good saying that has a frayed spot cut it out.

Size as in diameter
This is an important factor, as it shows what has been tested, changes in raw material and whether you are testing the correct sample, many testers do not carry out this procedure, products change over time, retained samples and records are of the utmost importance.

Keep in mind
A central break in a test specimen does not constitute a successful test, as some claim it is, but it may be just a broken strands (caused by the holding method) tension being taken, generating heat further along and breaking away from the holding method.
A braids true strength is a 23deg C, cooler is stronger warmer will see it's strength drop dramatically, hence bollard test method should not be used. 24/10/2012.


Paulus
Last edited by Paulus on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:02 am, edited 25 times in total.
Paulus
 
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Re: Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Postby Paulus » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:20 pm

Hey Guys.

Well all the line testing is still very much alive and they continue on.

I have been testing a considerable amount of both hollow core and solid braid, closely watching the test results that were being achieved.

Keep in mind this is not so much about fishing as such, but testing the test method and getting the best end result, with that, the hope that it gives a unified simplified method of the test. I know that some will say I don't care about one, two of five percent, well this is not fishing, but it allows me to see small changes in in how things are done.

Some recent developments.
I had started testing hollow cored braid at 40lb, and worked up.
I have developed new holding method for braid for direct pulls and changed the bollard wrap method to such an extent, to achieve the best result.

In the tested sample i would examine the break and wonder why did that fail there, that was the same spot as the last time, investigating those failures I found that's where the insertion tool and braid had been pulled through the main line, or that's where the insertion tool / wire was hooked around the main line and pulled through.
So you make small changes so these areas of very minor damage does not occur, it only takes a slight change on how you do it.

When you get very good results with an improved test method, I do tend to go back to other material previously tested, just to see if you can get a better result on those.
One particular line that I have consistently tested at 111.1lb, its an easily remembered number, so I use it as a reference line, to re-test with any changes I make in investigating effects in testing procedures.

Chasing the hollow core up in the breaking strain range I could see small changes making differences to the end result, so changes in loop overlap length needed to be controlled, as any minute slip would create a fail and you can throw the test out the window.
When making adjustments to testing procedures to better accommodate higher breaking strain braids, I go back & test the 111.1lb line to see whether the changes I have made for the higher breaking strain lines has affected the result on the reference sample.

The loop size and the overlap length is now standard for all tests, as is the un-supported test length on all samples.

Not all mistakes are bad, annoying yes.
While making a set of samples up to review my best of 186lb with one particular line, I noticed that my samples were a 100mm short, rather than finishing off the loops I thought hang it i will test them as they are at this stage, well to find another 12lb, that set me off on a whole different tangent, this involved another series of 30 tests just to see why, and it was not the length, then finding the why sent me over 201.6lb.

The problem with this is you need to go back and look at a series of tests in the 60 and 80 lb range, maybe they can be better, but re-testing those found no change to the best result. And that other sample still hung in at around the 111.1lb.

With Solid braid testing, the test method with the bollards is going to change, I have seen a better result on re-testing some held samples, but only one or two percent, a little more setup work for a better result and far less failures.

A lot has come out of reaching the 200+lb, on the line that was testing with previous straight pull  techniques at 186lb and it was on the bollards, am I protecting the braid under test, with this this new method,,,,,,,, maybe, as it is giving a better result than the loop pull, under controlled conditions.

As I go up higher in breaking strain, I am not sure what lies ahead or what changes need to be made to the test protocol, or what will be found.
At this stage I am within the IGFA test protocol. but I have developed a technique of a refined method of holding the line at its ends and a specific degree of bobbin wrap that is proving a very improved consistent test at this stage.

More to come as I complete this series of testing.
Last edited by Paulus on Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
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Re: Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Postby Paulus » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:46 am

Hey Guys

Just tested the Jb 60lb green hollow core, this has a bs of 101.93lb av and 102.35lb best.
Compare this to the previous white sample that I tested at 89.23lb av and 90.24lb best.
This is an increase of about 15% or so. Maybe in the past we have just not been comparing apples with apples.

A few points to take into consideration.

Question No 1 is, is this 15% due to a variation between batches, or has the waxy coloured coating played a part in the result.
I have heard colours mentioned before, (like they make no difference) but in this case its a waxy substance that may have assisted in reducing the heat build up between fibres, assisting the abs.
Question No 2 is, when most of this coating disappears as it will, will it then be at a similar abs as the white, as it has no waxy coating, I guess its in a little more of a natural state.

Maybe the way to go is to get a sample from the same batch, remove the coloured coat and re-test, if that's at all possible.

Thanks gdc23 for sending that sample in, I may need to ask for a second lot. I also tested the leader material.

Other materials recently tested.

Braid,  Jerry Brown hollow core green 80lb. TUF-Line Guides Choice hollow core 40lb, 60lb, 80lb, 130lb, 200lb, 300lb. Adam's Alien sensory, 44lb.  YGK G Soul, 20lb.  Varivas Casting Pe 23lb & 28lb. Unitika 16lb, 20lb, 30lb, 35lb.
Mono type,  Ande Mono 20lb, 30lb.
Leader Material,  Stren tinted leader 80lb,  Izor leader 100lb, Instinct XTS supple & tough 50lb, 80lb & 100lb.


Thank you, Paulus
http://www.pcwi.com.au/fishing/index.htm
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:44 am
Location: Highfields (Newcastle) NSW Australia

Re: Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Postby Paulus » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:35 am

Hi Guys

I did do a further test on that Jb 60lb hollow core green sample of line.
I removed some of the waxiness/colour and retested it, the test result went from the original 102lb to 88.8lb, that is where the test result of the white Jb is at (although the white is a different sample), I do like comparing apples with apples.
The test sample was very short so it would not be a fair test.

gdc23 has mentioned that he will send in another sample, thanks for that.

I may be able to also do a salt exposure test as well to see if would drop even further.

I have done a similar test on the Spiderwire 65lb, Original abs was 78.62lb,I removed the coating and retested it , result was 55.65lb.
That is a considerable drop in strength.
Will look at this further.
Paulus
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
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Location: Highfields (Newcastle) NSW Australia

Re: Test Sample, Preferences & requirements

Postby Paulus » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:22 am

Hi Guys

It has been mentioned that the material for testing should come from a primary source.
Well that means you only see the good material, not the lines that you would be fishing with,,, do you think that a manufacturer is going to send in a line that is of poor quality.

I prefer to see a section off a 150yd or a 300yd spool, from a production run that is out in the market place, not a predetermined section of line.
Having seen and tested samples, and then compared them to a production run can be like chalk and cheese. Thats why I like to see them come from fisho's like you, from all over the world.
Keep them coming.
Paulus
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:44 am
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Re: Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Postby Paulus » Thu May 10, 2012 7:49 am

Hi Guys
Again I have to say.
For braid testing the manor in which way the line is held is so critical that clamps, wires and wrapping the line around items does not work, and shows in the end result.
This wire (Knotenlos) as a knotless join does not work,,, worse still some use it to for testing a braids bs,, a disaster.

Using this as a knotless joining method,,,, this does not work, do not use it for testing

Image
Do not use,

To the guy that tested all the braids using this method,,,, you put in a lot of work and have an extensive list but it has been all in vain.
Because the method you used does not work.


Image

Do not use this, as at best you may get upto 70% of true abs.
Using the wire the best result i could get was 58% on a 8.25lb braid (abs tested using my method).
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:44 am
Location: Highfields (Newcastle) NSW Australia

Re: This is what happens with backyard tests

Postby Paulus » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:12 am

Hi Guys

Hi Paulus,
Actual test performed by me estimated 12kg = 26.4 lb. This confirms that it is Tufline XP 20 lb line as suggested by the measured diameter.
Regardless of actual breaking strains, here we have a case of company 20lb line labeled incorrectly as 30 lb on the spool.
See email below.

I bought a spool of Tufline XP 30 lb in August which I have just put on a reel.
My measurements put it at .008 inches (micrometer) and true line breaking strain ~ 26.4 lbs
Here is an extract from the company web showing that these specs are a near perfect match for the 20 lb braid both in measured diameter and actual breaking strain.
Seems we have a case of a 20 lb product mislabeled on the spool as 30 lb.

RATED POUND TEST 20 LB , ACTUAL BREAK STRENGTH 27 LBS, DIAMETER IN MM 0.190,
RATED POUND TEST 30 LB , ACTUAL BREAK STRENGTH 37 LBS, DIAMETER IN MM 0.280,


Well, I keep saying and will keep saying you cannot do these measurements yourself. You also cannot believe what is written on the packaging.

My tests have shown these results.

Diameter is 0.264 x 0.369 av is 0.316mm
Tested bs is 53.29lb.av.
His test 26.4lb

This will say it all, you cannot test yourselves.
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:44 am
Location: Highfields (Newcastle) NSW Australia

Re: Testing ABS of Braid, results & my thoughts

Postby Paulus » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:44 am

Hi Guys

You may see that I keep saying "you cannot test lines yourself" mainly aimed at the so called home guru tester, but as i get further into testing braids, their make up and design it seems that this comment also goes for manufacturers and the so called officials in the testing business, IGFA, GFAA and EFTA. Some cross testing has opened up a lot of flaws in their holding systems.


The biggest problem I see is owning a test machine, and then not having test protocols or the necessary braid holding methods, which are to numerous to mention, as each braid type, bs and diameter has its own holding method.


I have developed a few braids in conjunction with various braiders, I always get the same comments,,, your measured diameters are bigger and the bs is much higher.
Paulus
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:44 am
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